Curse

October Jade · Apr 27, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Energy Degen has no effect in PvE, since enemies have unlimited Mana.

I don't think that's true. ESurge commonly fails to do maximum damage, indicating that monsters can indeed become depleted of energy. While I don't find it worthwhile to construct an entire skillbar around the concept, you can utilize resource denial to a small extent.

Helcaraxe · Apr 27, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Well, the mesmer has two functions.

1. Stop the enemy from achieving their goal. (goal can be attacking, casting, moving, etc...)
2. Give the enemy enough rope to hang themselves (these are the skills like empathy, backfire, spirit shackles, etc...)

So, that being said let's take a look at where this can fit into the PvE game of Tank, Nuke, Heal. It is true that the best shutdown is killing the mob. I agree with that, however what if you can't kill the mob? What if the mob kills you first? This is where the mesmer comes in. I have found that skills such as [skill]Power Block[/skill] and [skill]Diversion[/skill] and even the passive interrupts like [skill]Guilt[/skill], [skill]Shame[/skill] and [skill]Mistrust[/skill] are invaluable with the recent addition of Hard Mode. Let's tell a story!

I was doing D'Alessio Seaboard the other day in Hard Mode. And before we left my group was talking about how they failed 3 times because of "Those damn monks". So, seeing this I put Shame and Diversion on my bar, and the monks go down no problem and we complete the mission. Why? Because when you can't kill the enemy due to them out-healing your entire array of nukes, the solution is very simple... stop them from healing.

I had a similar situation when trying to vanquish Ice Flow yesterday, a group of 3 White Mantle Priests would have been a serious problem for a standard tank, nuke, heal. But with some shutdown thrown in, they went down just like the rest with little diffuclty.

Now, I have to admit that shutdown is ONLY useful in Hard Mode. In normal mode mesmers were very rarely wanted in a group because things died much faster than they could be shutdown. Very rarely did a mob live long enough for a mesmer to say "Ok, he's shutdown now.". It was more of "Ok, hex 1... hex 2... almost there.... shit, the ele killed it already!" But now with mobs living longer and being more of a pain in the ass, shutdown does have a place. I feel that playing my mesmer in Hard Mode thus far has been the most rewarding experience. Nailing meteor shower with Power Block is extremely satisfying, 'cause then you just turned that Big Nasty Charr Fire Caller into a cute fuzzy puppy with a big wand. And now your party doesn't have to worry about some ele mob with triple damage skills or whatever rediculous number is attached to it.

Now, I've been focusing on caster shutdown thus far, what about those mean melee mobs? [skill]Ineptitude[/skill][skill]Clumsiness[/skill][skill]Signet of Clumsiness[/skill][skill]Soothing Images[/skill][skill]Spirit Shackles[/skill]. Well, I think we got that covered too, oops, forgot a big one [skill]Spirit of Failure[/skill]. But anyway as you can see mesmers aren't lacking in melee shutdown either, not only for simply attacking mobs, but also if we want to keep them as far away from us as possible [skill]Shared Burden[/skill][skill]Kitah's Burden[/skill][skill]Imagined Burden[/skill]... and so on.

So, does the mesmer have a place in PvE? Yes
Does the mesmer have a place in normal mode? No
Does the mesmer have a place in Hard Mode? Absolutely!

Renegade26 · Apr 27, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

One way would be to increase healths of enemies by lots, so that they take longer to kill. This would make Meteor Shower less effective, because it has a 60 second recharge, and only gives 10 seconds AoE shutdown. If the monk isnt killed in that time, then that Monk will heal up and be fine, meaning the Ele becomes LESS effective from Nuking.
The Mesmer becomes MORE effective (as well as other mesmer ways of dealing with enemies that other classes have). The Mesmer can shutdown the monk continually with Backfire + Interupts. The Water Elementalist can shutdown the Warriors by snaring, because they wont die before they can kill your team. Rangers will work better by spreading Poison through the team; degen becomes much more useful in general because it has the full effect.
Necromancers become MUCH less effective at spamming high damage spells (Minions or SS/ Curses) because there are less deaths, but they work much better at shutting down the enemies with Faintheartedness and Mark of Subversion type skills.
This means that beating the enemy before they beat you isnt possible, longer matches make hit and move on tactics less effective, and spamming is harder. Shutdown and other methods of kiling become much more effective.

Btw, I posted the quote on the OP if you wish to know.

MSecorsky · Apr 27, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Hey, look, it's [skill]Ether Lord[/skill]!

Energy Degen has no effect in PvE, since enemies have unlimited Mana.

The Mesmer's saving grace in PvE is Backfire and Caster Shutdown. Necromancers do Melee Shutdown much better and easier.

Hey Look! Ether Lord sucks all your energy when you use it! Limits the spammability, no?

Think [skill]Life Siphon[/skill] but for energy instead.

This isn't to degen the enemies, btw... it's to boost the mesmer.

Taala · Apr 27, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by October Jade

I don't think that's true. ESurge commonly fails to do maximum damage, indicating that monsters can indeed become depleted of energy. While I don't find it worthwhile to construct an entire skillbar around the concept, you can utilize resource denial to a small extent.

Nah, they cheat somehow with the energy. Back when I still used to play a mesmer I did energy surge/burn so that it didn't do max damage, yet one second later the enemy was happily spamming away 10 energy costing spells.

You don't even need to be a mesmer to see that. Those damn aloe seed thingies use Holy Wrath and still find energy from somewhere to use Heal Other as they please.

Zinger314 · Apr 27, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Hey Look! Ether Lord sucks all your energy when you use it! Limits the spammability, no?

Think [skill]Life Siphon[/skill] but for energy instead.

This isn't to degen the enemies, btw... it's to boost the mesmer.

As said, enemies in PvE are unaffected by Energy degeneration. Therefore, the only good thing about the spell you propose is the energy gain back...

Hey, look, it's Soul Reaping! Obsoleting Energy Management since 2005!

MSecorsky · Apr 27, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

As said, enemies in PvE are unaffected by Energy degeneration. Therefore, the only good thing about the spell you propose is the energy gain back...

Hey, look, it's Soul Reaping! Obsoleting Energy Management since 2005!

With all the mention of mesmers having energy issues in PvE that's what I'm addressing as a hypothetical new PvE only skill, not the thoughts of e-denying a mob of PvE critters.

Now... how exactly do you compare the active casting of spells for energy management to the passiveness of Soul Reaping?

Aigred · Apr 27, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

The solution, in a nutshell:

Make enemy monsters take long to kill.

Renegade26 · Apr 27, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aigred

The solution, in a nutshell:

Make enemy monsters take long to kill.

I said that ^^

Mordakai · Apr 27, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Helcaraxe said it even better! ^^^^^^^

Renegade26 · Apr 27, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Helcaraxe said it even better! ^^^^^^^

Nah I dont think he did

Ensign · Apr 27, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

The only thing that really rocks Mesmers in PvE is scaling. I've found that Dom Mesmers are really effective in Ascalon hard mode, for instance, and I can only assume they'd be great in the other 4 man areas as well. It's only in endgame areas, where you start fighting huge mobs that a premium starts being put on AoE and global effects. Also, smaller fights tend to put more emphasis on precision play, which Mesmers are better able to execute - in huge fights, a lot gets lost in the crowd and effects that are less discriminate become more valuable.

I think it's campaign specific more than anything at this point. In Prophecies, Mesmers are strong characters up through the crystal desert. The mobs are still small enough there that precision tools are warranted. It's not until the southern shivverpeaks that they start to get drowned out in monster glut. The other two chapters have those arrested startup periods, providing entire continents of 8 man content that swallows Mesmers whole.

Peace,
-CxE

Dr Strangelove · Apr 27, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The only thing that really rocks Mesmers in PvE is scaling. I've found that Dom Mesmers are really effective in Ascalon hard mode, for instance, and I can only assume they'd be great in the other 4 man areas as well. It's only in endgame areas, where you start fighting huge mobs that a premium starts being put on AoE and global effects. Also, smaller fights tend to put more emphasis on precision play, which Mesmers are better able to execute - in huge fights, a lot gets lost in the crowd and effects that are less discriminate become more valuable.

I think it's campaign specific more than anything at this point. In Prophecies, Mesmers are strong characters up through the crystal desert. The mobs are still small enough there that precision tools are warranted. It's not until the southern shivverpeaks that they start to get drowned out in monster glut. The other two chapters have those arrested startup periods, providing entire continents of 8 man content that swallows Mesmers whole.

Peace,
-CxE

QFT. Curses necros are the endgame mesmers, providing less efficient shutdown, but over a much wider area and with a soul reaping energy engine on their back going nuts.

By the endgame, my only motivation to bring a mesmer is for hex eater vortex/shatter hex in hex heavy areas.

Edenial does work on enemies, but battles are so short, even in hard mode, that it just doesn't matter. I'm sure edenial would work stunningly if every mob took 10 minutes to kill, so you had time for their casters to run out of energy, but that generally doesn't happen.

XvArchonvX · Apr 27, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Energy Degen has no effect in PvE, since enemies have unlimited Mana.

The Mesmer's saving grace in PvE is Backfire and Caster Shutdown. Necromancers do Melee Shutdown much better and easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

As said, enemies in PvE are unaffected by Energy degeneration. Therefore, the only good thing about the spell you propose is the energy gain back...

Hey, look, it's Soul Reaping! Obsoleting Energy Management since 2005!

Sorry, this is a big myth that really has to be killed. Put Spirit Shackles on a any attacking enemy, then top it off with a Mind Wrack. You will see that they can easily run out of energy. Some enemies may look like they have unlimited energy, but equip an energy denial bar and you will see that any monster can be drained. Energy draining in PvE is generally a waste since it takes too long to drain most enemies, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a good build to take some places.

Buster · Apr 27, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

I found nothing wrong with mesmers. I play a Mesmer, completed all 3 campaigns with no problems and for me I was able to get into groups quite easily. Maybe I was just lucky ? Though i would like to see Anet messing with the inspiration line and actually add some better defensive spells for mesmer.
Our armor base is the worst of any class and makes us too fragile in combat.
Physical and Elemental resistance are rarely use in mesmer builds. Perhaps we should start using those ?

Everyone and their cousin who makes PVE groups will take an ele,war,ranger and necro even before considering a mesmer. Why ? Because most groups take professions that are made for damage. The idea of a mesmer is to make your opponent helpless so that the rest of the group can easily defeat it. Which in my mind is more effective than a fire ele tossing meteor shower. I guess people need to start understanding mesmer skills better before they start passing judgement.

Seef II · Apr 27, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster

Everyone and their cousin who makes PVE groups will take an ele,war,ranger and necro even before considering a mesmer. Why ? Because most groups take professions that are made for damage. The idea of a mesmer is to make your opponent helpless so that the rest of the group can easily defeat it. Which in my mind is more effective than a fire ele tossing meteor shower. I guess people need to start understanding mesmer skills better before they start passing judgement.

But that meteor shower does damage and shutdown. Why take a mesmer (shutdown only) over that?

Quote:

Our armor base is the worst of any class and makes us too fragile in combat.

Monks, rits, necros, all 60 AL.

Buster · Apr 27, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

But that meteor shower does damage and shutdown. Why take a mesmer (shutdown only) over that?

Monks, rits, necros, all 60 AL.

True enough meteor shower can be effective and does damage but can be easily interrupted due to how long it takes to cast not mention mobs can run from it so timing it right is essential. Mesmers can whip out more interrupts and damage spells faster than an ele.

Monks and rits can atleast heal themselves while necros have better health gaining spells. A Mesmer on the run literally has no chance. We have ether feast which is a so so heal spell which only works when we aren't taking heavy damage and we are most dependent on a monk or rit healing us.

Zinger314 · Apr 27, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster

Monks and rits can atleast heal themselves while necros have better health gaining spells. A Mesmer on the run literally has no chance. We have ether feast which is a so so heal spell which only works when we aren't taking heavy damage and we are most dependent on a monk or rit healing us.

Because all Monks, Ritualists, and Necromancers have self-healing, right?

Ensign · Apr 27, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

QFT. Curses necros are the endgame mesmers, providing less efficient shutdown, but over a much wider area and with a soul reaping energy engine on their back going nuts.

I don't feel that Necros are really taking the place of Mesmers. Have you been taking Necros to do caster shutdown? I haven't. Curses guys are all anti-physical stuff, with weakness / shadow / miss chance and some attacking punishment (Spiteful, Parasite) mixed in. Mesmers have a bit of physical shutdown or punishment usually (Empathy, Spirit) but you're bringing them to deal with caster effects.

Thing is, those anti-caster effects don't really scale ever, and most are backloaded. You can edeny a target, sure, and that's fine in an attrition battle but doesn't do a thing in most PvE fights that are decided in a quick burst. Diversion, same deal. Takes a while to hit what you want, which amounts to nothing far too often. So most of the time you're working over one guy, which is invested shutdown...too narrow, too late for most encounters. If I just wanted to shut down one guy right now, I'd use Broad Head Arrow for instantaneous 'guy stops casting'.

In general though I'll just say that the Mesmer falls through the cracks of tired PvE design that doesn't leave room for anything that doesn't scale in impressive ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Edenial does work on enemies, but battles are so short, even in hard mode, that it just doesn't matter. I'm sure edenial would work stunningly if every mob took 10 minutes to kill, so you had time for their casters to run out of energy, but that generally doesn't happen.

It's surprising to see how the energy on different monsters work. Some wind down pretty quickly, others stay up for a long time, and it doesn't neccessarily correlate in ways you'd expect. You'll see a lot of eles wound down to virtually nothing 30-40 seconds into a fight, but it doesn't matter because they die around then if they hadn't already.

Hence it's a matter of neccessity. If certain casters needed to stop working before you could break them, edenial and other invested shutdown would be awesome - the faster you could lock them down, the sooner you'd win the fight. But it doesn't work that way, you can break through mobs even without invested shutdown, and usually fast enough that invested shutdown didn't do anything to win the battle, so why bother?

Peace,
-CxE

Helcaraxe · Apr 28, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Ok, since energy denial seems to be the topic of discussion here. Let's explore it a little more. XvArchvonvX said in a previous post that energy denial IS effective in PvE and I largely agree with that. There are ways to make use of it. I'm gonna start with a really easy example of some solo-farming.

Now, back in the day I used to solo-farm Arborstone (explorable) with a build comprised of only mesmer skills, and the main focus of the build was energy denial. We all know that mobs are too stupid to stop attacking no matter what hex you put on them. So, we go through a simple process for any caster/ranged boss/mob.

Aggro
Hide behind a wall, rock, or whatever you can find
Cast [skill]Spirit Shackles[/skill][skill]Mind Wrack[/skill][skill]Spirit of Failure[/skill]
Watch the enemy hang itself
Collect loot and move on.

So, energy denial has one use, farming. Let's explore some other possibilites. The main energy denial skills come in the domination line, two of which everyone should be familiar with. [skill]Energy Burn[/skill] AND [skill]Energy Surge[/skill]. Casting both of these drains 16 energy (assuming 16 in Domination magic). Add in [skill]Signet of Weariness[/skill] and we're up to 24 energy in a matter of about 3.5 seconds. What does this accomplish you may ask? Well, some shutdown builds (the one I use for example) require the enemy to cast spells first in order to shutdown later. With this quick energy denial they won't be casting anything for ahwile. Depending on the mob you can also throw [skill]Guilt[/skill] OR [skill]Shame[/skill] on them to not only interrupt whatever they cast, but ensure that they lose even more energy. And if you feel the need after that you can cast an energy degen skill to help keep them from casting. We also have several of these, such as [skill]Ether Lord[/skill], [skill]Panic[/skill], [skill]Power Flux[/skill] and [skill]Ether Phantom[/skill].

Now, we know how it works... let's take a look at the where, and why.

Where to use energy denial in PvE? I have to admit I have not found many places where it is necessary. BUT, and example may be something like Koosun in the Raisu Palace mission. His [skill]Starburts[/skill] hurts ALOT. Get him low on energy before he is in touching range and you are good to go.

Why to use energy-denial in PvE? I said it in my previous post. Killing a mob before it can kill you IS more effective than any form of shutdown. But with Hard Mode out this is not always possible. It is in the instances where you just can't outdamage them that shutdown (sometimes in the form of energy-denial) will make or break the battle for your party. Even if you just stop one Starburst, one Meteor Shower, one hex, it could make the difference between succesful mission or staring at the "Return to Outpost" button.